Today in History:

Was Lincoln a Tyrant?

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2 months 2 weeks ago #214 by JessicaL
I am absolutely agree with you! Thx
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3 months 1 week ago - 3 months 1 week ago #185 by omejames
Watergirl and fireboy is an interesting game players have to provided these two things to play they also move around the maze to collect the diamond click here fireboy and watergirl game to reach the end of maze they complete the level.

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5 months 4 weeks ago #122 by mark12345678910
Very well and thank you. Just to be clear i was not saying so much his personality was of a tyrant, more so just his actions at times seems to fit the bill.

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5 months 4 weeks ago #120 by kevin
You are correct. My response did not directly tie in logically to my statement, written in haste with distractions. I started to respond to some of the points about Lincoln in your op, but switched and did not list the points, specifically Lincoln as a rich railroad lobbyist as evidence of his tyrannical tendencies.

My point was simply there is a leap being made to tyranny being a central facet of the man's persona based on anecdotal evidence. I chose to write about Lincolns' persona rather than refute points. Your research is solid, but isn't necessarily the whole picture and in complete context. I appreciate your research and points, however, as it helps flesh out the history and full story.

It is true Lincoln was a very controversial President at the time and did not enjoy the popularity then he does today for reasons that have little to do with slavery.

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5 months 4 weeks ago #118 by mark12345678910
Thanks for the response sir. I would like to respond to a few things. It is certainty debated if he was a christian. But mu op argued that he was indeed a tyrant, your response was

he was not a Tyrant. There is plenty of documentation to refute the overall assessment, not the least of which is Lincoln was not wealthy, nor was he a lover of slavery

I am sorry but I dont understand how this has anything to do with if he was a tyrant while president and the most powerful man in the country. That was the argument of my op. You than said


It was a different time and difficult to judge the actions as a back seat driver from 150 years later. Lincoln's stated objective as President was to maintain the Union as his first priority and he took whatever steps he thought necessary to do so

It was a different time, Lincoln was a first in america for big government. he crated allot of firsts in america. In short he changed us from our union to an empire that we are today.

From Union to Empire- The Political Effects of the Civil war
www.civilwar.com/forum-homepage/the-civi...f-the-civil-war.html

I would argue in the above thread he did not aim to maintain the Constitution or the union, but create a new nation controlled by the federal government.

“[After the war] the old decentralized federal republic became a new national polity that taxed the people directly, created an internal revenue bureau to collect these taxes, expanded the jurisdiction of federal courts, established a national currency and a national banking structure. The United States went to war in 1861 to preserve the Union; it emerged from war in 1865 having created a nation. Before 1861 the two words "United States" were generally used as a plural noun: "The United States are a republic." After 1865 the United States became a singular noun. The loose union of states became a nation”
-James M. McPherson

[The civil war was] “The fiery crucible which the old nation was melted down, and out of which modern America was poured”
-Historian William Hess

“Overthrow the present form of Federal-republican government, and to establish a strong centralized government in its stead...national banks, bankrupt laws, a vast and permanent public debt, high tariffs, heavy direct taxation, enormous expenditure, gigantic and stupendous peculation . . . No more state lines, no more state governments, but a consolidated monarchy or vast centralized military despotism.” “instead of crushing out the rebellion,” the “effort has been to crush out the spirit of liberty” in the Northern states.
-Northern Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham D-Ohio spoke of the reason for Lincolns war 1863



I will save any comment on the reasons for the war [the north did not go to war to end slavery] for the threads i did on those subjects.

"Lincoln was a master politician, which means he was a consummate conniver, manipulator, and liar."
-Murray Rothbard

“Lincoln was Americas first modern politician”
-Al Benson Jr and Walter Kennedy Lincolns Marxists

Described as an expert politician able to condone and condemn at the same time. He would say yes, and no, and make listeners believe his intentions were good, a modern politician. His opponent in 1858 Stephen Douglass stated Lincoln “Can trim his principles any way in any section, so as to secure votes.” The Chicago daily democrat press said Lincoln “Provided a kind of loophole for escape if anything he said should not satisfy all kinds of views.”

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5 months 4 weeks ago #117 by kevin
Not going to spend much time rebutting these arguments, this is a good compilation of data from a variety of sources and much of it matches the Lincoln that was known up through about 1855. I disagree with the overall assessment of who Lincoln was as a man and his core values, however - he was not a Tyrant. There is plenty of documentation to refute the overall assessment, not the least of which is Lincoln was not wealthy, nor was he a lover of slavery - his family moved from Kentucky to Indiana partly because his mother and father found it disagreeable, but also because of his views on reconstruction.

There is another side to Lincoln that certainly played a role in his actions and decision making. Lincoln would take afternoon walks during the war, privately, and was known to visit the wounded in the hospitals in Washington, spending time with the soldiers and praying for them. From personal accounts I have read his walks were not much publicized and he tried to do it without fanfare or publicity. There was a turning point in his life about 3-5 years before he was elected to his first term as President which is borne out in his position on issues and his writings which indicate he had moved to a position of belief in God. The death of his son in 1862 clearly had an impact on his view of the spiritual nature of mankind and mans relationship with God. Lincoln was not considered a religious man, rarely attending church services, and has been much criticized then as now as not having believed that Jesus Christ is God. His wife, on the other hand, was a devout Presbyterian, regularly attending worship. In the mid 1850's, however, in Lincoln's writings, outward actions and demeanor there is a profound shift in the man. Close friends have described without reservation that during the war Lincoln as much as professed belief that Jesus Christ is God and had died as a sacrifice for sinners. Sometime in the 1850s Lincoln began carrying with him a copy of the New Testament in his jacket pocket. On his walks he would reportedly sit and read it. His writings began reflecting more and more not only the language of the bible, but the message and his private actions likewise. Lincoln did state that he was opposed to organized religion, but a close study of the man indicates he found something in the life and actions of Christ that was worth emulating and he strove to do so.

There is also a fair amount of information in the official record about some of the actions Lincoln took as Commander In Chief that literally stomped on the freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution. Some of these actions were undertaken by his cabinet and not directed by Lincoln, but not overturned by him either. It was a different time and difficult to judge the actions as a back seat driver from 150 years later. Lincoln's stated objective as President was to maintain the Union as his first priority and he took whatever steps he thought necessary to do so. The objective of the Confederate States was to exercise their rights as sovereign states as they saw it under the Constitution. Something to understand was at that time in history, the vast majority of Americans believed in God, and most of those felt strongly that the nation had been ordained by God, that to divide it was basically sacrilege. I believe Lincoln fell into this category. Likewise, many in the South viewed the teachings of groups backing Lincoln as anti-Christian (see Henry Ward Beecher) and therefore the Lord was on their side.

Among the reasons for the war was, without doubt, slavery and its abolition, and most of the seceding states' politicians backed secession in part over that issue and with an understanding the individual State had the right to determine the course of action on the issue. Therefore secession was more about who had the right to decide what to do about slavery and when to do it, with a fair amount of politics, power, and control of resources thrown in. It is important to realize there was a vast wealth of untapped natural resources up for grabs and whoever controlled those resources would be powerful and wealthy. This had a profound impact on the war and it influenced both sides.

Lincoln, in my opinion, strove to maintain the Union with a view it was the right thing to do. His actions were not those of a Tyrant, therefore, but rather more those of a man with a conviction. It is difficult to argue he was a Tyrant when his guidance and actions on reconstruction are considered as a part of the equation.

"...I know that the Lord is always on the side of the right; but it is my constant anxiety and prayer that I and this nation may be on the Lord's side." - Abraham Lincoln

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