Was slavery the primary cause of the war?

Lucinda · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:02 am Post subject:

In reviewing my most recent post, I see that I have once again been "beeped!" I believe I have recently been given the title of "politest poster"on the forum. I am not prone to foul language(at least not in my writing)! Confused

I find it highly entertaining that I was "given the beep" for typing the last name of the author of many great works of literature. Among them "A Christmas Carol." A tale that spreads good tidings to all mankind at this "most wonderful time of the year."

Perhaps I must reevaluate my take on good manners and say an emphatic "Bah, Humbug!" As you cannot see my actual expression right now, I will say that I am in very good humor and greatly amused!

Now, I shall check this post to see if I have received another "beep" for my above quote relating to good manners.

I now unerstand why so many of my friends have been saying the the internet is a better form of entertainment than television. It most surely is!

I think LOL is the proper close for this post...am I correct?

"Laughing Lucinda" signing off! Razz

Lucinda · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 10:11 am Post subject:

Possum,

Just a quick note to say I have taken us to page 6 with my last post. In order to view my response to your last posts, you must return to page 5.

Lucinda

* I am most appreciative that I was not "beeped" again!

possum · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject: was slavery the primary...

We both know that this is what the powers that be do - manipulate the masses into believing the spin, pay large sums of money to do so, spinning, spinning, spinning exagerations and lies all the way to the ballot box.

Most US citizens thought the Iraqi war was was about getting rid of nasty tyrant/terrorist when, yes, it was about another precious commodity. Mugabe could do with a short sharp military thrust but not much oil in Zimbabwe. Tibet could do with a hand against the Chinese.Nothing to capitally gain from there either.
Gotta go to work

possum · Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: was slavery the primary

That beep comes when you least expect it. I got Beeped for mentioning Tom, *beep* and Harry. Imagine some poor woman calling her son beep.lol

possum · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 3:48 am Post subject: was slavery the primary

Lucinda,

I think I need to clarify my position somewhat. Its quite unsatisfactory in a busy life to give important issues such as this one, the reflection and depth of study that they merit. I come in at times, rattle a few things off according to the mood I'm in, then go and do something else. This can become no doubt quite discordant at times for the reader. I confess I kinda get off on that kind of energy but its often ill-considered and can sometimes come across as flippant.

Also I want to make clear that the whole concept of slavery and the suffering it engendered and all the consequences of it that no doubt still reverberate through your country, appals me.
Always has, always will.

Had I been around in the 1860's, I would have been an abolitionist no doubt, hopefully dwelling in the Southern States. I would not have been a John Brown type of abolitionist (dragging men out of beds in their nightshirts in the dead of night to cut their throats isn't my thing). I hope I would have been a Lysander Spooner kind of abolitionist - someone who had the brains to see the true Republican agenda. The Emperor Palpatine brigade.

D'you think you could adjust the 'slavery being the cause of the war' idea, to seeing it as being ONE of the causes of the war? Just a thought.
Along with potentially thwartable corporate expansionism.

For the record, I have a source that says that in 1850, fewer than 5% of the South's whites owned any slaves. I dunno how that squares with 3 million + slaves (the population of N.Z.) but I trust the writer.
Anyway thought I'd take the time to have a more satisfactory interaction with you Lucinda.

Arohanui and with respect to you too

Possum

Lucinda · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:03 am Post subject:

Possum,

I will, most certainly say that slavery was one of the many issues leading to war. I don't believe I indicated that I disregard all other causes. In the 19th century, as today, the motivating factors which led to wars were diverse. One could say that every individual views events differently.

I have been interested in American history since I was a very young child. I am not one who won't talk about my age...It's been about 40 years. I do not stretch the truth when I say I have over 1000 books in my personal library. Most of them are about the Civil War years. I have read extensively about the war and I am familiar with all of the views about the causes of the war.

Many authors and historians continue to debate the issues amongst themselves, too. You and I are in good company in our differing views.

I suppose the point I've been trying to make all along, is that there were different views during the 19th century. There will always be differing views.
I know, beyond a doubt, there were many factors which brought about the Civil War. I feel that the issue of slavery is the primary theme in every book I have read. I did not live during the 1800's and cannot really say what was in the hearts and souls of those who did.

I have many first-hand accounts and diary reprints. Many of them present slavery as the cause. One outstanding volume I would suggest that you might really enjoy is "Voices From the House Divided: The United States Civil War as Personal Experience" written by Glenn M. Linden & Thomas J. Pressly. The book covers the events of the Civil War years using only the accounts of 20 individuals. To read the words of actual participants in the events of the 19th century is really the best way to truly understand what people actually felt in their souls.

In any case, I will agree that there were many causes which brought about the Civil War. I will also add that I do see slavery as a leading issue throughout the early years of U.S. history.

I do respect you very much, Possum. You have provided one of the most intelligent debates I have ever had with anyone regarding the Civil War.

I look forward to many more exchanges with you on this forum!

Warm regards,

Lucinda

possum · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: was slavery the primary

why thank-you Lucinda. Sometimes I feel I stomp around the forum like I own the place which could seem to many that I'm arrogant - not being American at all. A bit of a cheek really.

Thing is, i have a constant compulsion to get at the truth of the matter and I'm intrigued at the way this particular matter is so elusive.It's like being in a maze and you think you're getting somewhere and then suddenly you find you have only ended up in front of a great thicket of views, distorted by generations of suffering, on both sides.

I find the scale of the tragedy too much to take in at times.It was Shelby Foote who got me started, as I was really struggling to figure out what makes Americans tick:

"Any understanding of this nation has to be based, and I mean really based, on an understanding of the Civil War. I believe that firmly. It defined us. the Revolution did what it did. Our involvement in European wars, beginning with the First World War, did what it did. But the Civil War defined us as what we are and it opened us to being what we became, good and bad things. And it is very necessay if you're going to understand the American character in the twentieth century, to learn about this enormous catastrophe of the nineteenth century. It was the crossroads of our being and it was a *beep* of a crossroads: the suffering, the enormous tragedy of the whole thing" said Shelby and I still don't understand.

Anyway I'll try and get hold of the book you recommmend and talk after I've read it. Bearing in mind of course that content can always be manipulated to make one side shine and the other tarnish. Objectivity is such a rare commodity.I'll try and keep an open mind.Ha!

Lucinda · Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:43 am Post subject:

Possum,

I believe that you will find "Voices..." to be quite good. It's told by those who did have very different views of the Civil War and actually lived through those difficult years.

If you really want to delve deeply into the history of the early years of the United States, I suggest the book: "The Rise of American Democracy - Jefferson to Lincoln" by Sean Wilentz. I finished reading it about 3 months ago and found it to be extremely well written. Be warned, though, it's a hefty volume...796 pages of text and then pages of notes...1044 pages from cover to cover. It's one of the best books I've yet read on the subject of early American politics.

Kind regards,

Lucinda

yankeegal · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 4:38 am Post subject:

I'v been going through all of these forums now for a few days trying to see what other people thought about the cw.and this is basicly what I got out of all of it: Now I dont want to step on anybodys toes but, it seems to me that the south seems to do a lot of boohooing and pointing fingers at the north for starting the war. Now I always thought the south started it but then I here "well the North invaded the south". Now we all know that I'm talking about frt. sumter right? And Frt. Sumter is where?......... South carolina. Now I know that S.C. was TRYING to sucede from the Union, but I'm pretty sure that they never actually did. I mean I think that would make them a country right? And I dont remember south Carolina ever being a country. So frt. Sumter was property of the federal government...right? This is just something that I was thinking about but I'm not to sure if I'm right. I would surely appreciate anybody elses thoughts

Lucinda · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 7:56 am Post subject:

Actually, South Carolina adopted an ordinance of secession on December 20, 1860. They were the first to leave the Union, but other Southern states followed their lead over the next several months.

The forts off the coast of Charleston, S.C. were a primary concern for North and South. Major Robert Anderson (U.S.) was told not to initiate aggression with South Carolina. He was given instructions that he could abandon his position at Fort Moultrie. On December 26, 1860 he did move his troops to Fort Sumter.

This move was, in fact, viewed as an act of aggression by South Carolina authorities. Buchanan was still the President at this time and he chose to avoid confrontation, but he did refuse to abandon Sumter.

In any case, the situation continued to deteriorate. Other states left the Union and Fort Sumter was on the minds of everyone. Anderson badly needed supplies and they were sent on a ship named "Star of the West." The ship came under heavy fire when it approached the fort and it turned back. That was in Janusry, 1861 and there are many other details about it, too lengthy to get into here.

Fort Sumter was fired on by the Confederacy on April 12, 1861, again because of approaching supplies. By that time, Lincoln was President...the "bad blood" between Noth & South had boiled over and the war was begun. In Lincoln's inaugural address, he said to the South "You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors." The Confederacy had now fired the first shots and Lincoln was able to say the choice to fight was made by the South. Lincoln called for 75,000 troops to quell the insurrection.

The rest, as they say, is history.

Regarding the actual "right of secession"...that's a topic which brings on a great deal of debate and argument. No matter what we think about it today, it happened in 1861, and no amount of debate changes the events of that time. I do not want to bring on another Civil War here, so I will say nothing about the "rights" of a state to leave the Union.

I hope this has helped.

Lucinda

yankeegal · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:30 am Post subject:

Thank you lucinda!! But did the south ever really become there own country? I also wanted to make a point here.......to everybody in this forum,(mainly the south) i want you to think real hard and tell me if you are proud to be a citizen of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. And if you are (which you'd be foolish not to be) then you should be happy that Lincoln interfered with the sucession of the states. Because if he didn't and just let the south go, like he could give a crap, then the south would be another country, and wouldnt be half as great as our beautiful, wonderful, free and powerfull United States of America!!!! Cool

Lucinda · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:58 am Post subject:

Yankeegal,

Life in 19th century America was quite different than it is today. There are many opinions regarding the South's "Right" to secede from the Union.

Southern leaders believed that the U.S. Constitution did, in fact, support that right. Of course, the Federal government did not agree and saw the act of secession as an act of rebellion.

The answer to your question is...the Confederate states believed they were free to secede and did so.
In the eyes of Southern leaders, they were a separate
nation. There are rational reasons to support their view. The Federal government was, in the views of the South, abusing their power and a state had the right to remove itself from the Union if they believed that to be the case.

On the other hand, in the eyes of Northern leaders, the Confederacy was not a recognized "nation" and the North felt it was their duty to bring them back into the "fold."

So, the answer you are seeking is one that is still being debated to this day. The events unfolded as they did and the Civil War changed our nation.

Read some first-hand accounts written by participants of the events...that will give you a better understanding of what people really believed...not modern day opinions. I hope this has been more helpful than my previous post. There really is no definitive answer. It's all up for conjecture.

Personally, I would add that as citizens of the United States, we are each entitled to our own opinions, and have the right to express those opinions. We are quite fortunate to have those rights. The men and women in the Armed Service of this nation protect those rights every day. We owe our thanks to them.

I believe, as citizens of the U.S., each of us must think about how we are viewed as a Nation on the international stage and by our fellow countrymen. We are very lucky, but we must respect the rights of others, too. I believe the Civil War was brought on by people who forgot that.

We must be mindful not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Lucinda

N.W.15thAR · Captain Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 167

I am not really that proud to be an American. What is there really to be proud of? There are too many problems here. Also I think its crap that a the United States hasn't declared war on someone since WWII, yet we have been in about 4 diffrent wars and a small number of other conflicts. But thats my opinion. Veterans are cool though, I have tons of respect for them. But anyways, I like my little piece of ozark Arkansas so ill just hang out till i can run for some sort of office that can make a diffrence in this country, and hopefully make a turn for the better.

Pvt. Gale
N.W. 15th Arkansas

yankeegal · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 2:38 am Post subject:

I dont understand how you can say that your not proud to be a citizen of the USA. Theres not many other Countries that would even allow you to say that on the internet, for the world to see. How many other countries give you so many freedoms? Do you think that other countries would even let you have a sight like this one on the internet? A sight where your basicly bad mouthing the country you live in!! I do understand that we have problems in this country, but tell me a country that dosnt have problems, and I'll give you my left boob! And the problems that this country has right now, dont even amount to a hill of beans when copared to the problems of most other countries.
Why do you think theres so many immigrants trying to live in our country? Most of them even risking their lives to be here.
So in closing I would like to say, I'm really sorry you feal that way, and I apologize because I just dont understand you! If you dont like America then you might wanna try Canada. I hear they have free health care, but I wouldnt tell anybody I live there!

p.s.
you might want to look this up, but I'm pretty sure that congress declared war on Iraq.

N.W.15thAR · Captain Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 167

I dont know this but im pretty sure that you can say just about anything on the internet reguardless of what country you live in, Im not sure though. You can keep your boob, i dont want anyone to make fun of you for only having one pillow instead of both. I do understand that there are more problems in other countries, but when you look at canada for example, The top headlines in the news in the biggest city in their country is some new speed bumps on a barely used road, that sounds like their doing pretty good. Im not saying I dont like this country, im just not gonna go around and be like holy crap im so proud to be an american, cause im not really that proud. We havnt really done anything for me to be proud of. Also, the house and congress only gave the president the use of the military. but theres no need to apologise, everyone has their opinion about their country, good or bad, mine unfortunatly is just unfavorable. but if it counts as anything im hugely proud to be an Ozark American and a southerner *haha* a bit off subject though. Im sorry to disappoint anyone. And again i just want to say I do respect veterans a ton. It takes guts to do what you do.

Pvt. Gale
N.W. 15th Arkansas

P.S. I do say the pledge though!